Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Guest Blog #3: I Love You Forever (Or at Least Until It's No Longer Convenient)

Happy Wednesday, loyal speak.™ readers. Hope your day is going well. The next edition this week is from the MySpace world. MySpace is like a drug I can't kick and I always feel compelled to check for new messages, friends, blogs, etc. I've seen some pretty interesting things and met some very interesting people... especially one particular subscriber. Her name is Kornika - and folks, she is definitely entertaining. No doubt about it, her works are definitely one of a kind. You can check Kornika out on Myspace and be on the lookout for her new website, launching this summer. Help me welcome the one, the only, Kornika!

Leave it to me to deviate from the sexually charged blogs that the wonderful guest bloggers before have me posted. Nonetheless, I'd like to take this time to blog about an issue that I've been meaning to blog about for quite some time now-- for two reasons mainly. The first of which being the collapse of my marriage and the second reason was because my friend Marcus's blog inspired me. Both reasons can now hereby be summarily condensed in this here blog.

First and foremost, for those of you that don't know, I still am in possession of a piece of paper that says I'm married. However, that's all it is - a piece of paper. Once upon a time it was more than that. It was tangible evidence of my "unconditional love." And I say "unconditional love" with the quotes because I really am now in doubt that such a thing exists. And Marcus's blog discussed this way back when in January. I won't share the blog here because I don't know that he'd be comfortable with it. So instead, I'll excerpt it to keep his identity concealed (unless he wants to reveal himself).

In Marcus's blog, he states:

Love can never be truly unconditional. We fall in and out of love on a constant basis. Dedication, however can, and must be [unconditional] if a relationship is to survive the innate conditionality of love. I think when people say that they love someone unconditionally, [what] they really mean [is] they are unconditionally dedicating themselves to loving that person. Then, if at any time, a person feels their heart or mind wandering or that love fading, the intense dedication should kick in and should force the straying person to get back on track. Without that dedication, we would just be at the whims of our desires.

The kicker comes when you realize that the other person does not have that same unconditional dedication to you that you have to them... whether it be because they cheated, or have just stopped doing the things you do when you are completely focused on a person and their needs. It would be unfair to yourself to stay in that relationship knowing that there won't be any change in that level of dedication...

But to NOT stay, to absolve yourself of that vow of unconditional dedication because the other person broke theirs...well, that's not very unconditional, is it?

To me, however, that's an acceptable condition for unconditional-ity.

Now, I don't know if Marcus knows this, but this blog was the kick in the ass that I needed to finally move on from my marriage. Well, this blog and the comments to follow in the blog.

There were a lot of differing opinions as to whether or not love is/can be unconditional. There were some dissenting and some concurring. I, obviously, do not believe that love can be unconditional. Let me explain...

In my response to Marcus's blog, I wrote, "I believe in unconditional love with conditions. I didn't used to. I would have been there through it all. No matter what. But when it starts to drag one down, to the point of not being able to function. When it becomes unhealthy for you and everyone else involved ... well, that's the 'acceptable condition for unconditional-ity.'" And I still believe this wholeheartedly.

I am now a stout believer in unconditional love with conditions. And true, that is a contradiction in and of itself; but it is the simple state of matters. That is not to say that I don't believe in loving someone forever. I am firmly of the opinion that love is forever but the distinction needs to be made that forever does not mean unconditionally. Follow me here...

One of the blog commenters, we'll call her "MyMySpaceSoulmate" or MMSS for short, said she believes unconditional love DOES exist. Her argument is:

When you TRULY love someone ... with all your heart, inside and out, backwards and forwards, you will always love them. I think we can all recall at least one person to whom that rule applies. It's that person whom, if you saw on the street on the way back from [the grocery store], you would have to at least acknowledge with a head bob even if they dissected your heart with a rusty knife. It's that person with whom, no other person existed prior. It's that person that is always in the back of your mind, and [whose] happiness with which you are always curious.


And here is where I think careful consideration needs to me made in regards to the distinction between loving someone indefinitely and loving them unconditionally. Sure, you may acknowledge the person when passing them by in the streets, but at that point, your love, no matter how enduring, is now conditional. It is marked by pain, by disappointment, by lessons learned ... sure, you love 'em still but be with them? Hell naw! Take 'em back? Fuck no. Wait for their maturity? Negative. You grow and you learn. You always love. But you're different for it, because of it.

MMSS uses an analogy to illustrate the unconditional-ity of love saying, "Sheesh... fungus loves warm, dark, wet places UNCONDITIONALLY."

But Marcus has a GREAT rebuttal for this saying, "The fact is that fungi only love warm, dark, wet places with the VERY SPECIFIC condition that they REMAIN warm, dark, and wet." Now that's not very unconditional, is it?

After this retort, MMSS was able to dissent from her original stance and agree that perhaps unconditional love doesn't, in fact, exist. But really, we were the only persons in this discussion. I'd like to pose the question to a much larger audience and ask; does unconditional love exist? Is there a distinction between the indefinitely of love and the unconditionally of love? Is anything in life unconditional?


13 comments:

  1. I haven't read through all of the comments yet, so please excuse me if I repeat anything.

    I don't believe in unconditional love. Wait, that really sounded bad...let me explain. Like Kornika said, there are always conditions. Whether you choose to acknowledge the existence of those conditions is a whole other issue. In my opinion, unconditional love is synonymous with blind and undying forgiveness...a thing that human beings would like to be capable of, but aren't. Think about it. Even if you are the most forgiving type of person, a lover/spouse can betray you, and while you may forgive them on the surface, you never really forgive them completely. BUT you may stay at this person's side because, as Kornika put it, you are unconditionally dedicated to that person. Unconditional love in a relationship is like sunlight, you have it while you have it, you cherish it's light and warmth while you can, but when the sun sets you better have some means of maintaining. Dedication is that means.

    I'm regretful that your marriage did not work out, but I congratulate you for moving on when you saw it best for you. A lot of people aren't strong enough to do that.

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  2. Hmmm... I have definately read some interesting things on this here blog, but jorge this was one of the BEST things you could have done, brought this woman in here for this topic.

    Unconditional love... Wow, I don't believe it in. I believe that I love you unconditionally in the sense that God told me I had to, that right there is the only TRUE unconditional love. But being deep, head over heels in love. Man, that is a mood simply because if you have to try and work to love someone the way you did yesterday, it surely ain't unconditional. It's I tried. All love is, is simply a mood or feeling. And we all know our feelings change. Marriage is a parternership, sort of like a job. We go out of business, or hell some marriages are like ENRON, the employees get screwed big time... And some businesses grow and become muliti million dollar business, its all the work you decide to put in. But love, hmmm will never be unconditional....

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  3. I think unconditional love is possible just not in a romantic situation.

    I will always love my mother, with all my being no matter what she could do to me from here on out. I know that will never change.

    On the other hand, I love my boyfriend under the conditions that he continues to treat me the way he has and remains committed to helping our relationship grow. If he reneges on either of those, it's no longer a romantic unconditional love relationship (you need 2 people for the romance part).

    That's not to say I don't still have feelings for past lovers that hurt me but the fact that we aren't together means that their love wasn't all-inclusive so I can no longer be in love with them. When they made the decision to change their behavior they "ripped up" their unconditional love contracts with me.

    Does that make sense? Get at me if I got a little wordy for anybody, I'll condense and clarify if I can.

    Great topic Kornika (c/o Jorge).

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  4. First off great topic.

    Second I don’t believe in unconditional love outside of a parent/child relationship. I’ve been feeling this way but have never been able to express it sensibly. So thanks for putting a name on what I am searching for in a relationship “unconditional dedication”. I think people are too dynamic and evolutionary to think that the person you fell in love with is who that person will be after years and years. It is being dedicated to remaining with that person through the changes that life brings, and recognizing when those changes are too much too handle.

    I love this blog topic!!!! Great job!!!!

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  5. Very interesting subject. I tend to believe that love itself does not exist, in a global sense of the word. I feel that love is unique to every person and that the goal in life is to try and find someone who loves like you.

    About unconditional-ity {did i spell that right?}. I wonder why people think that just because you love someone you have to be with them and if you're no longer with someone you dont' love them anymore. Love has no time limit or specifications. Yeah I love my ex-boyfriend but I don't want to be with him, but i love him . And not the, keeps me up in the middle of the night why we ain't together love. I love him for he is and what we had. I totally agree with MMSS and know all about that someone, sigh. {not the ex for the record, ha!}

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  6. I do believe in unconditional love! I love God unconditionally! Yes, there are times when things don't go the way that I think that they should, but at the end of the day there is no love lost.

    As far as unconditional love as a man loves a woman, no, there cannot be. We fall in and out of love, but when you say your vows, it should not be taken lightly. It says for better or for worse, when do we stick around for the "for worse"? Many people don't want to, but that's how it goes. Just to let you in on a little secret, people rarely get a divorce because of someone cheating, it's usually because the trust is no longer there. Trust takes time rebuild, maybe years, but if you are dedicated, then time is all you have. It seems that we have forgotten about patience. We love in the microwave age where everything is done in 2 minutes, and that is too long! When will we realize that love and dedication go hand in hand? Although one person may have slipped up on that dedication, it's ok, if they truly repent, and get back on track with the dedication. However, if the person is selfish and does not want to get back on track, then the trust is out the door and so is the love! Since we can only control ourselves, it makes it extremely hard on continuing to stay dedicated because you're not sure if the other person is as dedicated. When you do find out that the other is not dedicated, you feel as if you were loving a dream a lie... maybe dreams aren't so bad. You ask yourself, "How could you be so stupid?" Yet, you still feel a certain tendre for them because they touched a part of you that had been sleeping. What do you do? Try to love another or try and make it work?

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  7. Wow...it is way tooooo early for this heavy shit. LOL. Honestly, I should be working on my guest blog, but this was a phenomenal topic.

    I think the true arguement is not whether unconditional love exists, yet if WE, as the fickle people we are, can show unconditional love. 1st, GOD is the ultimate example of unconditional love. He loves us although we sin, hurt our fellow brothas and sistas, and continually destroy this lovely planet He created. MY BAD, HEAVENLY FATHER (but I digress). 2nd, a parent's love for a child is unconditional because in actuality it is an extension of God's love for us. The parallelism lies in the fact that God--who gave life--is our Father (parent/child relationship), and mom & dad--who gave life--are our parents (once again, parent/child relationship). WE SEE THAT TRUE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE EXISTS....NOW,

    3rd, can this unconditional love be shown toward someone who is (a)clearly not God (although he/she try to run my life like they are); or (b) not my child. Hmmmmm. The idealist in me wants to say yes, but I know that being 2-timed or hurt by even the "love of your life" can cause your assumed uncounditional love to waver. Does that make you a bad person? No, it shows that you are human and humans have flaws. See, GOD loves the preacher, rapist, murderer, pedophile, & hypocrite EQUALLY and UNCONDITIONALLY. But can Rasheeda love Tyrone when he take strolls through the park w/her and has dinner for two as EQUALLY when he lies, cheats, and takes her link card to get high???? IF SO, then hell yea, that is a display of unconditional love.

    Can I love the same way? Can you love the same way? We all can...it's just the DOING part that is difficult. However, the fact that we have the potential to love our spouse/boyfriend/ girlfriend/buck fuddy/"dip" unconditionally is enough for me to say YES, THERE IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

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  8. I have mixed feelings on this.

    I think unconditional love exists for the Lord and those that we consider family. We all know that no matter how retarded kinfolk are, we still love them. They may get on our nerves but that is not enough to "unlove" them.

    I also believe that we are able to love someone unconditionally. (Someone, I think, stated something similar earler) Loving someone unconditionally does not mean that you allow them to do whatever to you, take whatever from you, long for them incessantly or even be with them. All unconditional love means is that you love them regardless. Or, maybe I am stuck on the semantics.

    I mean, I have people that I love and will probably always love BUT I do not like them. That is not an oxymoron.

    We treat people the way we do because of the surface feeling for them. Love is usually way deeper, as it should be.

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  9. I think that rory's comments fit best with my views on the unconditional love that we so often hear of people having.I think that the dispaly of unconditional love is where we falter. When I love you, there are things that I do for you,because I love you.Now when you do me wrong, I stop doing those things.I stop coming to see you, I stop showing you affection.But do I ever stop loving you?I don't think that once you realize that you feel love for someone(which again is an emotion that people confuse with lust-desire-like-admiration etc)that you can ever really stop loving them.But what you can do is stop displaying your love for them.I love everyone today that I have ever declaired to love before but I don't display that love for them all because for whatever reasons,they have lost that privelage.To sum it all up(I'm probally rambling now), unconditional love DOES exist but we first have to make sure it was REAL love from the beginning.

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  10. Ok it appears that there are a lot of Christians in the room. So here are my thoughts as a Christian who continues to search for wisdom and understanding.

    If we go to the Word,(which we should/ must do in order to get this thing right) we find that love is an action verb. It's not a felling or an emotion. We should define what love is before we try to figure out if it's unconditonal or not..

    1 Corinthians 13 1-13 (known as the love chapter) describes and defines what love is..
    1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
    4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
    13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


    As you can see love is many things and it's the greatest of all things. True love never fails. It will remain forever. Other things will pass, but love will stay. Which is evident in Christ's walk on this earth and his ultimate display of love- his death,burial and ressurection.
    Love will make you love your enemies (Matthew 5:44) (Luke 6:35). Love is unconditional and commandant that we should keep. Jesus tells us to keep.

    Now, this blog also contain the issue of marriage. Ephesians 5 tells us how a husband and wife should love one another. A wife is to submit to her husband as unto the Lord (verse 22) Becuase the husband is the head of the house. But husbands if you are the true head of your family, you are order to love your wife as Christ love the Church and gave Himself for it (verse 25). The chapter goes on to say that men should love their wives as they love their own bodies.

    So if two people are loving each other like this, then unconditional or dedication is not an issue for them. The problem arises when one or the both are not seeking Christ. Marriage is a testiment or example of God's love
    and its purpose is to glorify HIM. Now if you come into a situation where your spouse is not living up to his/her side of the deal.. God does give us way out.. 1 Corinthian 7:15. But you have to truly pray and ask for God's guidence.

    I think a lot of us are going into marriage with the wrong ideals and hopes. We haven't asked God to send us our spouse. We based our decisons on our emotions and feelings. Which emotions and feelings do change all the time.
    So, we have to look at love from a Spiritual eye, not the flesh.

    Sorry, if this got too lengthy, but it so important to keep things in a spiritual persepective.

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  11. I beleive in unconditional love. Just becuase you are no longer around a person why is that a reason to not love them. According to certain religions we are suppsoe to try as hard as we can to love all of God's creatures no matter what. Sometimes it is easier to love someone you are not around. All it really mena is...Wait let me see if I can break it down.

    Love-A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

    Unconditional-Without conditions or limitations; absolute

    Okay so here we go have you ever loved someone and they do you wrong and you feel so stupid for still having thoughts about them like you can't be with them, but you would be lying to yourself if you said you didn't have "A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection" for them. Unconditional love.

    I don't understand why people feel you have to be with someone to love them. Why? Just because I don't have an order of Harold's chicken in front of me doesn't mean I don't love it. And what about those old couples that stay together until one dies. They went through someshyt I'm sure, or even that aunt and uncle who always fight but stay together. How about the woman who stayed with her abusive husband until he beat her to death-Unconditional love.

    I still love my ex very much, but I can't see us together, and he did me real bad. On one side I have to stay the hell away from him, because I love myself, and he is very verbally abusive towards me, but I still love him. I don't know why exactly, but no matter how mad I am at him I still want him to prosper to learn to mature to even one day get married to another woman besides me as long as he is happy. I still get this feeling about him that I can't explain, but it is hate-less, it is prue, it is natural that ineffable is Love and it is unconditional at least as far as I know, ha ha ha......

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